Who’s the bigot?
December 30, 2008 by Tony
Filed under Challenge, View-All-Posts
Merriam-Webster’s Online Dictionary Definition:-
- a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
Merriam-Webster’s Online DictionaryI hear this term thrown around quite a bit nowadays. Especially after the voters passed Proposition 8 in California and now with Obama asking Rick Warren to give the inaugural prayer.
I have to tell you, I feel a lot of hate and “bigotry” being aimed towards me as a straight white Christian male.
Just so we are talking the same language, here is my view (opinion) on the gay marriage issue:
- I believe that God intended marriage to be between a man and a woman. That’s why the pieces are built the way they are built and work the way they work.
- I believe that the Bible teaches that sex outside of marriage is wrong. Hence, sex between the same sexes is inherently wrong since marriage requires a man and a woman.
- I believe that God loves everyone regardless of their sexual orientation. However, it’s not sexual orientation that determines the fate of your eternal soul anyway.
- I accept that I don’t understand all there is to know about sexual orientation. There may be people born with an orientation towards being attracted to others of the same sex, I don’t know. However, there are probably real instances of sexual andor emotional abuse leading to a different sexual orientation as well.
- I believe sexual conduct is a choice. Regardless of sexual orientation and desires, it is my believe that homosexual sexual activity is wrong.
- I also believe that heterosexual sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong. So is pride, greed, selfishness, indifference, etc…
- As proofed by my two points above, I don’t put myself on any higher plane than someone that is gay.
- I believe the people have a right to vote on issues like “marriage” and define it as the majority believes it to be defined as long as it does not infringe on the rights of the minority. If I understand Proposition 8 correctly, only the “marriage” term was being defined. Civil Unions are still recognized. I do not believe a government should restrict rights or benefits to just “married” couples that are different than “civil union” couples.
- I believe churches have the right to believe what they want and to set their membership standards as they choose. If a church decides that “membership” requires acknowledgement of homosexual sexual activity as wrong, that is that churches prerogative. However, I also believe that all Christian church doors should be open to anyone that wants to attend and anyone that attends should be loved. Attendance is not the same as membership and love does not mean condoning what is believed to be wrong.
This is a deep topic and I have really only scratched the surface and have probably not explained myself a clearly as I would like. However, I think the above points give you a good idea of my opinion.
So I ask you, am I a bigot for my beliefs? Or is there some bigotry towards me for my beliefs by those that see this issue completely differently.
What I hear from men like Rick Warren is close to what I have stated above. Yet, do a Google search and see what people are calling him.
I have to ask sometimes, who’s the bigot?
First of all let me say I like your blog. I am also a conservative. I believe in small government, fiscal responsibility and that we ought to stay out of people’s business.
You are not a bigot for having those opinions. We live in a free country and you are free to have any opinion you choose. You are not however free to hire or fire someone based on those opinions.
You have also put the chicken before the cart. Mixed metaphors on purpose because what the bible says about homosexuality, which is very little and very vague, has nothing to do with what our country legislates.
I don’t believe in god, at least not the one you do. Any god worth his power and magnitude wouldn’t have created a group of people just so they could be discriminated against and reviled by so many.
Just because the parts do or do not fit is a bass ackward argument. I don’t want to be graphic but most men I know who are straight like a lot of the same things that gay men like. Even more to the point most women, if really pressed would skip intercourse for cunnilingus any day of the week. Being gay has very little to do with sex when you get right down to it.
Let me also say that I am straight. I am also the daughter of a gay man married to a straight woman. The arrangement was not the best but the only one available for a gay man who wanted a family. I wouldn’t wish it on anyone however.
You can have your opinions, but when you tell someone that they can’t have what you have because of something you read in the bible that isn’t bigotry it’s just stupid.
Religion has nothing to do with this issue. It is a civil rights issue. It will not bring down marriage as we know it. Straight marriage is already messed up because of easy divorce laws and the instant gratification of our society but not because two people who happen to be the same sex want to be legally committed to one another.
What I would like to know is why does it threaten the religious groups, the evengelicals, to have same sex marriage? I have yet to hear a reasonable answer that doesn’t involve the words “because the bible says so”.
Jen
http://kidsofqueers.blogspot.com/
Jen’s last blog post..The Laundromat
Jen -
Thanks for adding so much to this post. Especially from your unique perspective. I do appreciate that you give me the right to hold my opinion. My purpose in the post was not so much to argue the merits of my opinion as much as my perception as those with a pro-gay opinion hold those with my opinion in contempt - usually perceiving those like me as a bigot or ignorant at best.
I will however try to address some of your points.
I agree 100%. I did say I think a church as the right to open up membership based on their views of homosexuality because a church is in essence a private organization. One is free to judge a church one way or another on this but I think a church should have this freedom. In the public sector I agree that sexual orientation should not be discriminated against. I do think a business has the right to impose dress codes by gender and not have employees dress according to the gender they “feel” like they are. This is really a transvestite issue rather than a gay issue but they are often lumped together when talking about employee rights.
I think the bible is a lot more direct on this issue then pro-gay Christians and non-Christians state. However, that is a different debate. I will say that the greatest commandment in the bible is to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength and then to love your neighbor as yourself. This commandment is often tossed overboard as conservative Christians judge homosexuals and as I read blogs and articles from gay-supporter, there is very little love and respect for me because I differ from them. I think there’s guilt on both sides when it comes to the two primary commandments in the bible.
As far as legislation, my point on proposition 8 was that the people voted, people with an overall very liberal political viewpoint, and the people voted that they prefer to keep the term “marriage” to mean a union of a man and a woman.
I guess a question I have is, why is this term “marriage” so important to the gay community that strives for rights to be openly different?
Now, should a church be able to sign a marriage certificate that grants a civil union in the governments eyes? Maybe not. Maybe for a legal personal partnership both heterosexual and homosexual couples should be required to get a government issued document for tax and insurance purposes.
God did not create a people that could be discriminated against and reviled. People discriminate and revile others all on their own. Homosexuals in this country also have it much better than most of the world. I think it is better to be gay in America than starving is a war torn African country where you see no hope for a future. There is lots of bad in this world and places to question God. This topic would get us way off track on this post. I’d be glad to talk about it more via email or I probably can try to address it seekingabove.com in the future.
I am guilty of making a very simplistic statement here. However, I was not really talking about sexual fulfillment. You really don’t even need a partner for that. Biologically, man and woman were meant to be partners. If I believed in evolution (a scientific theory with no concrete evidence of cross-species adaption) I would wonder if a genetic condition for homosexuality would eventually be phased out.
That said, I agree that being gay is much more than sex so I admit that this is not a good argument - but also, I was not trying to debate homosexual issue here, just my right to believe differently without being a bigot for doing so.
I’m not sure if you’re calling me stupid or not. This is not the only topic where one without my faith would call me stupid because of my faith so I guess I am guilty as charged.
I’m stupid because I believe God will bless my family with as many children as he wants us to have so we have four great kids when many smart people would say that we are over-extending ourselves and should have stopped at two.
I’m stupid because I believe what is mine is not really mine but belongs to God so I should be willing to sacrifice as needed for others. I probably give away way to much for any intelligent person.
With an already large family, it is probably not too bright of me to spend 20k to adopt a little boy from Ethiopia to add another mouth to our family.
I could go on, basically, I agree, my faith can make me look pretty stupid.
I actually agree.
I can’t speak for all religious groups or even all evangelicals (which is a broad brush term) but I feel that the gay marriage issue is just one step in an overall agenda to eventually impede on my rights for my faith. “Marriage” is a religious ceremony. Most religions, not just Christianity, view homosexual activity as counter to what their faith teaches. You’re not calling me a bigot but many with a pro-gay view would. Eventually it would be illegal to preach in a church a view that homosexual sexual acts were wrong. Maybe even eventually child abuse to teach this to my children. For sure, I would have government schools teaching my children a different moral perspective than one I hold.
Maybe it is a little paranoid on my part. Most gay and lesbian men and women are probably just like me and not wanting to take away my religious freedom. However, the political agenda is set by the political activist and I do believe they would prefer that people that have my opinions did not exist.
Finally, thank you again for commenting. You truly come from a unique perspective with your family background. I’ll be browsing through your blog so I can learn more.
This is precisely the discussion that needs to take place. We are pretty much of the same opinion on many of the points and we seem to agree that a lot of them have nothing to do with the actual discussion.
I did not call you stupid or people who are religious, it was confusing the way I wrote it. And stupid was a poor choice in words but I was tired. I was trying to say that discrimination is stupid.
So much of this discussion is over semantics for your side of it and civil rights on my side. Language is a powerful thing. Words are stronger than weapons a lot of the time. Surely you understand this since you have a passion for writing. That said taking away, or denying something as simple as a word (marriage) is wrong. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it’s a duck so lets just call it a duck. It doesn’t hurt anyone.
“but I feel that the gay marriage issue is just one step in an overall agenda to eventually impede on my rights for my faith. ”
I’m not sure I agree with you but it is the first time I have heard this argument and it carries a little more weight for me to understand it then “because God said so”.
The last group of people to deny anyone their rights is going to be the gay lesbian crowd or any group that has had to fight for their own rights for so long. I don’t think you need to worry about them. However when you have a preacher say that AIDS was gods way of getting rid of homosexuals you open yourself up to criticism. Its a defense mechanism. You call me a name or hurt me and I will do the same thing right back. Most of us aren’t better at handling school yard taunts we just have more money than we did as a kid and use it wisely. This goes for both sides and when you get right down to it its silly.
I take issue with the gay activists myself. I think they are doing more harm to their cause on some level for being so “activisty” but I understand that if I was denied something that most everyone else had I would go overboard in trying to achieve that which they have.
“Maybe it is a little paranoid on my part. Most gay and lesbian men and women are probably just like me and not wanting to take away my religious freedom. However, the political agenda is set by the political activist and I do believe they would prefer that people that have my opinions did not exist.”
See I’m not seeing how your opinion is bad. You don’t say you hate gays, in fact you concede that they are just like you (which they are). I’m not considering the religious beliefs you have because I don’t have them, but you having them doesn’t hurt me in any way. I don’t think I am going to hell because I haven’t been “saved”.
See, you don’t seem to have any problem with a gay couple living in a committed relationship. At least that is what I have read in your post, please correct me if I am wrong. No one is going to try to convert the straights of the world to become gay, there is no gay agenda other than equality for all.
My perspective is not as unique as you might think. There are an awful lot of gay married men, more tend to be religious, conservatives because of the fear they have of coming out. It is the ones who are not convinced that what they are doing, or wanting to do, is a sin who are out. Lesbians don’t seem to stay in a mixed orientation marriage for very long. They realize they are gay and they stop pretending otherwise. But you can read my blog to learn more about all that.
I appreciate this conversation with you. The only way that both sides are going to get past their fears is to have an open discussion that doesn’t involve name calling (both sides are guilty of this). If we are to love as god does then it seems to me there is no other choice than to grant the same rights to everyone. Love is unconditional. So placing conditions on it is going against god.
Jen’s last blog post..Best of Me 2008
Jen -
Thanks. I think we are pretty similar in our views, agreeing to disagree where we disagree on faith - where even folks in the same church disagree most of the time.
There are extremist folks on both sides of most issues. Abortion is a similar hot topic. Probably most of us are sickened by the extreme groups on either end. I saw your posts on Wesboro and those folks appear to fit the definition of bigot to a tee. That’s not God’s love.
On the other hand, I see men like Rick Warren getting called a bigot basically for his faith and that’s what prompted this post to begin with.
Thanks again for commenting. It is a good discussion.
P.S. a couple of clarifications - I’m not opposed to civil unions of homosexual couples because I don’t think government can impose religious restriction on people. My faith does not agree with it but I can’t impose my faith. I can share my faith by loving people, being honest about my beliefs but being respectful of theirs.
My concern over the definition of marriage movement eventually crossing over and hindering my own rights is because I see “marriage” as a spiritual ceremony. I see proposition 8 not being so much a government law to restrict marriage as a law to restrict a liberal court from taking marriage away from the church.
I am also concerned about the strong “bigot” language used against Christians when they are out spoken about their biblical beliefs. Bigotry should be legislated as illegal. Nobody wants burning crosses and other hate crimes in our society. However, if the government were to see any outspoken Christian beliefs as bigotry then there is the risk of my religious freedom being restricted.
I do understand there is fine line - where to you draw it? Religious extremism can be very dangerous. A la the middle east, abortion clinic bombers, and folks that advocate any violence or ill-will towards others. Personally, I detest anyone standing on a street corner telling others they are going to hell. The only time Jesus did something similar was when he was talking to the religious elite.
My first marriage was officiated by my Episcopalian Priest. That ended in divorce when my Catholic husband cheated on me. My second marriage was performed by a justice of the peace. Although it was a civil ceremony we were considered just as married as my first marriage. The sanctioning by the church didn’t change how married we were in the eyes of the government. That is not the case with civil unions between two gay people. Some states won’t recognize their marriage. I don’t think that is fair.
Incidentally just because the majority voted for prop 8 doesn’t mean it was the right decision. Firstly the wording of the proposition was purposefully confusing. Most didn’t know what they were voting on. The deck was stacked against them in California. And just because your friends all jump off a bridge doesn’t mean its the right thing to do.
If a church wants to choose to perform weddings for gays they should be free to do so. If a church chooses not to they should also be free to do so. However I do believe they ought to pay taxes if they are going to be a members only club which is what they would become if they choose not to perform ceremonies.
You can’t legislate bigotry. I’m actually against “hate crime” laws. Anyone who harms another person has hate. However the case recently where a woman was gang raped because she is a lesbian and had a rainbow sticker on her car makes me almost want to change my position on that one. Those men and boys should be sent away for the rest of their lives.
You don’t get pulled from your car and beaten and raped because you have the little fish emblem on your car. But people who have a rainbow sticker do. Imagine if the shoe were on the other foot. That you or your wife were forced out of your vehicle because you had one of the fish emblems. Then raped and beaten for your beliefs, and especially acting on those beliefs. Imagine living in fear every day because you didn’t know if the next person you met was going to judge you based on who you loved.
By continuing to deny gays the right to marry you and the churches that oppose it are contributing to these kinds of crimes. It’s perpetuating hate.
Luckily, these issues will simply age out sooner than later. The younger generations have no tolerance for denying rights to gays. They don’t understand it and when they come to power which will be in the next twenty years or so these things we are arguing over will be non issues.
Jen’s last blog post..Best of Me 2008
I don’t understand why a church should be taxed because their beliefs don’t support gay marriage. This is the fear I’m talking about with religious freedom at risk on issues like this. Why would a gay couple want to be married in a church that did not believe in gay marriages anyway? Shouldn’t they just go to a church that does? Why stop at marriages? Why not say a church is no longer tax exempt if they don’t believe anything the state says they should? It’s a very slippery slope here. It leads to my fear that the gay marriage issue can lead to much bigger things that may start to impede on my rights.
I agree. When I talked about legislating against bigotry what I mean is that it should be against the law, not just hurting others, but even if they are physically threatened without actually being hurt. Nobody should have to live in fear of who they are or what they believe. However, labeling some crimes as hate crimes and some as not does not make sense. Someone that does the crime you describe above should be locked up for good (at a minimum), you should not need a “hate crime” designation to do that.
Christians are killed all over the world for their beliefs and just for being Christian - way more than the extreme cases of homosexuals being assaulted in this country.
I also think African Americans face way more discrimination than gays. If your gay you can hide it, if you’re black you can’t.
My family knows that we are going to have to deal with prejudice once we have our new son. We’re going to have to teach and explain to him why some people will not like him or us because he is black.
There is also a more subtle discrimination against Christians. Think about the teenage Christian that wants to live free of drugs, alcohol, and sex in high school. They are not exactly going to be able to hang out with the cool crowd anymore than the gay guy.
Christians are not discriminated against unless they live out their faith. Then we are…(sound similar to being gay).
We homeschool our children because we believe we can give them a better education than what is offered in public schools. We are fortunate that we live in Texas. In other states (like CA), this right is in jeopardy.
Here’s a question - If I was at a party that included your gay and lesbian friends and I said that my faith does not allow me to condone a gay lifestyle - what would they think of me? Would their reaction be different if I said my faith does not allow me to condone the worship of Allah?
If they are not Muslim, they’d probably be indifferent about my statement about Allah but because they are gay, they would probably be offended at my comment about the gay lifestyle. This is understandable but aren’t my views being discriminated against?
Here’s an example where I think you may see my point that Christianity is not as discrimination free as you think… Gay proponents probably believe that the gay lifestyle should be presented as a normal alternative lifestyle in health classes or wherever this type of topic may be discussed in school nowadays. How many schools will allow Intelligent Design to be taught as an alternative to Evolution? In spite of the fact that plenty of scientist have lots of problems with the Evolution theory, ID is forbidden as an alternative theory in many schools. If you do not believe in Evolution, you’re not “normal” and your just a religious extremist.
I’m kind of rambling here. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is not easy living out your Christian faith in America today. I agree it’s probably easier than living an openly gay lifestyle, but as you say, the tide is turning.
While you are comforted that it is getting better for the gay community, I am worried about it getting worse for those that try to live out a Christian faith.
Since you experience some of the same bigotry I don’t understand why you would not be more tolerant of the gay “lifestyle”. Again the use of the language sets them apart. What is the gay lifestyle? I assume you are referring to the cruising and club scene that is abundant in cities such as New York and San Francisco. The promiscuous gays? The ones who tend to be more politically active? Are those the ones you mean? I know or knew a lot of promiscuous straights, especially in my 20’s in college. Some of them still are. That is their choice but you don’t call it the straight lifestyle.
Why would a gay couple want to get married in a church that didn’t condone their “lifestyle”? I don’t know, probably for the same reasons that some black people wanted to use the white drinking fountain or go to white schools or ride at the front of the bus. It’s sort of silly when they have perfectly good ones of their own but who can account for what people want these days?
Why on earth would you go to a party with gay people there? And if you were there why would you mention to anyone that you don’t condone their lifestyle. That would be rude. Furthermore why would you watch tv programs? Most are created on some level by a gay person. What about groceries? I’m sure there is a gay person working at the store, in packaging, development, CEO of General Mills (I don’t know this but am making a point)? Do you stop buying gas from a specific station because the owner is gay? You are right it is a slippery slope.
There is no equality/freedom unless it is granted to all.
My father hid his homosexuality for years and years. It nearly destroyed our family. Why would you want anyone to go through that? I know of a man right now who is an upstanding christian, husband and father. He also happens to be gay. His family doesn’t know about this yet but eventually the truth will come out. I understand why he hides it but it seems very sad that he has to. He is more likely to acquire SDT’s because he is in denial. He is them likely to pass it on to his wife which will cause further stress. He is miserable and cannot understand why god would do this to him. He has tried to stop being a homosexual, it doesn’t work. He feels constant stress and guilt for something he has no control over and god doesn’t seem to think it needs to be controlled since he has done nothing to change it.
I mean no disrespect to you, please understand that. You seem to be a reasonable guy. When you say that your faith does not condone a certain lifelstyle it worries me.
Frankly the christians that you appear to be a part of, the fundamentalists, scare the crap out of me. They are no less dangerous than the guys flying planes into our buildings. They have just as much hate and fear, which is probably the cause of their hate as these people.
Jen’s last blog post..Best of Me 2008
Looking back at my post two before, I can see if you were to approach it with the presupposition that I was angry how the words could seem confrontational. Please do not think that. I appreciate when people wish to learn. Again, the problems of the written word. (That and having the cat sit in front of the monitor while you are trying to type!)
BentonQuest’s last blog post..Are You Going To Answer The Door?
Benton -
No worries. It was getting late and I was probably reading more into your comments than I should have.
Tony